[00:00:00] Dr Dani: Hey, Pete. 

[00:00:04] Designer Peter: Hi, Dani. How are you? 

I am good. How are you? 

[00:00:09] Designer Peter: I'm great. Thanks. Yes. Good to see you again. 

[00:00:11] Dr Dani: Good to see you. What are we talking about today? 

[00:00:15] Designer Peter: today, Dani, , I'm looking forward to talking to you about the anatomy of an experience. 

[00:00:22] Dr Dani: Experience is one of those words that becoming a cliche.

[00:00:27] Designer Peter: Definitely. 

[00:00:29] Dr Dani: We hear it, we talk about customer experience, employee experience. 

[00:00:34] Designer Peter: User experience, 

[00:00:36] Dr Dani: user experience, patient experience. 

[00:00:39] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:00:40] Designer Peter: Pet experience, 

[00:00:42] Dr Dani: pet experience, something I care deeply about as a parent, do you think that we actually know what we mean?

[00:00:49] Dr Dani: And here I'm using the royal we. 

[00:00:51] Designer Peter: The Royal We. I don't think the Royal We, or even, I think it's hard to, it's one of the, yeah, I agree with [00:01:00] you, it's a word that's become, maybe not a cliche, but it's certainly become a word that is used a lot more, and I feel like we're at the stage where the Royal We, where we've kind of started using it without, exploring it and defining it in a useful way, .

[00:01:12] Designer Peter: When we were talking about the, what we're going to talk about today, and I think it was you that came up with the anatomy of experience that really appealed to me because I think it's, experience and experience has many different elements to it. , and that's where the anatomy metaphor really

[00:01:30] Designer Peter: resonated with me. So, okay, so we're in agreement so far. Experience. Small words, lots of meaning behind it. And yeah, I was just looking forward to almost thinking out loud with you and exploring, getting your ideas and sharing mine with you around, What it is and what it could be. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:01:49] Dr Dani: Oh, uh, so shall we start where we always start with, with a definition.

[00:01:56] Dr Dani: Let's get some definitions going 

[00:01:58] Designer Peter: for this more than [00:02:00] almost any other. Then we definitely should do that. Let's get into the definitions. 

[00:02:05] Dr Dani: So for today's Google moment. 

[00:02:08] Dr Dani: Let's see what comes up when I first Google. What is an experience? Practical contact with an observation of facts or events

[00:02:23] Dr Dani: the knowledge or skill acquired by a period of practical experience of something

[00:02:29] Dr Dani: an event or occurrence which leaves an impression on someone Yeah.

[00:02:35] Designer Peter: All of them are definitely relevant, but maybe the last one, an event or occurrence which leaves an impression on someone, that's, that's, that's most like the thing I think of when we talk about, , customer or user or team member experience. , yeah. An event or occurrence which leaves an impression on someone.

[00:02:57] Designer Peter: Yeah. [00:03:00] And then maybe I'll do my usual thing about the where it comes from, Latin, the Latin verb, experire, meaning to try.

[00:03:10] Designer Peter: So that's kind of interesting, isn't it? Try, try something. 

[00:03:17] Dr Dani: Which as a design thinker just, , makes my heart go, Oh yeah, 

[00:03:22] Designer Peter: yeah, yes.

[00:03:24] Dr Dani: It's from the 1800s, if I'm looking at this graph, right? Okay. Early 1800s? 

[00:03:31] Designer Peter: Early 1800s when the mentions started to pick up by the looks of it here.

[00:03:35] Dr Dani: Yeah. 

[00:03:38] Designer Peter: This goes Latin and then Old French and then Late Middle English. That's where it's evolved from.

[00:03:46] Designer Peter: The last part of the kind of etymology is it's it comes from the same Latin origin as experiment and expert. I've never even thought about that before, the experiment and experience are actually [00:04:00] from the same, an expert, they're all from the same word, to try.

[00:04:03] Dr Dani: Look at that, we learned something in our own exploration. I also found it interesting that, use over time, how it really starts to peak in the 2000s and late 90s.

[00:04:16] Designer Peter: Yeah, I've double clicked into that chart, actually. And, yeah, there seems to be,

[00:04:20] Designer Peter: Definitely, it looks like maybe the 90s, it starts to uptick. And then, yes, peaking and plateauing in the 2010s, 2020s. Yeah. 

[00:04:34] Dr Dani: It almost follows very closely to the design thinking trajectory, design thinking started 

[00:04:40] Designer Peter: I clicked into this, it's interesting, I've not done this before in these Google links, but I've clicked into one of these charts, double clicked into it, and it's taken me to, clicking into a decade, it's taken me to links to a couple of books, the experience economy.

[00:04:53] Designer Peter: , B. Joseph Byne, James H. Gilmore, that was 2011. , Product Experience, another book by Hendrik [00:05:00] N. J. Schipferstein and Paul Heckart, 2011. So, yeah, I think that this reminds me, yeah, that in the early to mid 2000s, there was lots of, I came across anyway, lots of, conversations, books, etc.

[00:05:14] Designer Peter: that mentioned experience, customer experience, etc.

[00:05:18] Designer Peter: Sorry I interrupted you. We can move on now. I finished nerding out on the Google definitions. 

[00:05:23] Dr Dani: I'm actually very intrigued by this because this might be a good way to find my new reading materials. 

[00:05:30] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:05:31] Dr Dani: Click on a word and go down a rabbit hole. 

[00:05:35] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:05:36] Dr Dani: Okay. So coming back to the definition of experience.

[00:05:42] Dr Dani: We're in agreement that in the context of design thinking, an event or occurrence which leaves an impression on somebody.

[00:05:51] Designer Peter: Yeah, I think that's the closest, it comes, but then that for me does incorporate the other, at least one of the others, [00:06:00] which was the practical contact with an observation of facts or events.

[00:06:03] Designer Peter: It's a, part of that event is that practical contact with, facts.

[00:06:07] Designer Peter: Yeah, maybe less, less about the knowledge or skill by a period of practical experience. Yeah, it's less that one. In fact, it's almost definitely not that one. 

[00:06:16] Dr Dani: Okay. Cool. 

[00:06:18] Dr Dani: Okay. So now we have a definition. So now what? Now 

[00:06:22] Designer Peter: what? What do we usually do? 

[00:06:25] Dr Dani: We talk about the what, the why, the how, and then the design thinker capability implications. 

[00:06:33] Designer Peter: What are some of the ways you think about or define experience?

[00:06:38] Dr Dani: So I think I have a very pragmatic view about experience. To me it all comes down to how are you making someone feel? 

[00:06:49] Designer Peter: Right?

[00:06:51] Dr Dani: It all comes down to that feeling.

[00:06:55] Dr Dani: And even as someone that tends to be much more in her head [00:07:00] than in her feeling, , we have to recognize that much of our decision making is driven by our feelings, there's plenty of research on this. This is not a Dani view. This is a very well researched fact that lots of our decisions are made, based on feeling.

[00:07:16] Dr Dani: Even when we think we're being objective, our feelings come into play. 

[00:07:20] Dr Dani: Yeah. 

[00:07:20] Dr Dani: Experience is important because the feelings that we have from an experience lead to buying decisions. It leads to, whether we decide to take a job or not, it decides if we're going to buy this house or that house, this product or that product, if we're going to sign up for this or that, if we're going to show up for an appointment, , experience determines all of the, any outcome that we want to create.

[00:07:50] Dr Dani: the experience plays a big role in shaping that. I had to dwindle down, what does experience mean? Experience comes down to the feeling. How does somebody [00:08:00] feel when they engage with the thing that you're creating?

[00:08:02] Designer Peter: Yeah, it's really similar to mine actually, summing up with this idea of designing for emotion and actually, you're almost designing for nothing more, nothing but emotion, nothing but, experience, because , that's what drives everything, , like you've just described.

[00:08:17] Designer Peter: What else can I, what else do I think? Or maybe, no, I agree. I'm only hesitating because of something you just said around, it's one of the main drivers. I'm wondering if there's, , if our experience is a bit of a thought experiment, could be too early to do it, in the episode. But, , is there anything other than our experience of something that drives the things you've just described? If experience is, I guess, the emotions, feelings resulting from the, , event that's occurred, or the thing that we've, , encountered, interacted with, the person, the service, the, , digital interface. [00:09:00] For example, let's say we're trying to, book a flight on an app.

[00:09:07] Designer Peter: So I go online, sign up to the app, I successfully, book the flight that I want to book. And I get, the relevant, notifications and confirmations. I'm left feeling

[00:09:20] Designer Peter: Satisfied, confident that I'm going to get to the airport, be able to get on the plane, my concerns might, if it's a good experience, at least my concerns will be allayed. I feel like, I'm dealing with a competent organization, maybe included in that, I might have satisfaction around the price that I managed to pay for the flight.

[00:09:41] Designer Peter: I was trying to think of anything in that experience that is not a feeling.

[00:09:45] Dr Dani: Everything you're describing is an experience. So the experience isn't just in the decision of buying that booking that ticket, 

[00:09:54] Designer Peter: yeah. 

[00:09:54] Dr Dani: The experience. Throughout the whole journey that you described, okay, the ticket [00:10:00] and that was a really good experience. Okay. I've gotten to the airport and I can check in really easily.

[00:10:05] Dr Dani: That was a really good experience throughout that whole journey from booking your airplane ticket to arriving at your destination. You have multiple experiences. 

[00:10:18] Designer Peter: Yeah. Experiences within the bigger experience. Is that the way you think about it as well? Yes. Yeah, me too. I wonder if, and it's almost, I've come across this word a couple of times recently, fractal.

[00:10:31] Designer Peter: It's almost like, there's, repeating patterns of experience. In experiences that might last no more than a fleeting moment, , and also repeating patterns of the, in an experience that might last, , I don't know, like an experience, let's say, of, studying towards an exam. That end to end experience could be years long, right?

[00:10:54] Designer Peter: But still, you , can be thought of, and I think of it as an end to end experience. [00:11:00] 

[00:11:01] Dr Dani: Yep. So I like to think about it as macro and micro. 

[00:11:04] Dr Dani: So there's 

[00:11:05] Dr Dani: the, there's the macro experience of a overseas trip. And then there are micro experiences within that trip. 

[00:11:16] Designer Peter: Yeah, nice, that macro experience, as in, I'm gonna be leaving on holiday, then I come back from holiday, I'm gonna have a great time traveling, experiencing new things, meeting, , friends and family, and then within that, , I'm gonna have experiences such as an in flight meal, getting, trying a new cocktail , in a bar, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:11:38] Dr Dani: Even things like onboarding the plane, offboarding the plane, getting your luggage, unpacking your luggage, getting your luggage, all of these little micro experiences that build up to the overall experience. This is where something like customer experience, you have to be really clear about, okay, there's gonna be the overall customer experience.

[00:11:59] Dr Dani: [00:12:00] When you engage with this brand, what is that experience? , but that experience is informed by all these little other experiences, right? Yeah. So when I go on your website to look at products. What is that experience like? What is that experience like now? If I go into a store, assuming that the company that has a store and a online presence, all of those things.

[00:12:24] Dr Dani: So every time somebody goes on the website, every time somebody sees something on social media, every time somebody walks into a store, , every time somebody wants to return a product, buy a product, those are all opportunities to create experience. 

[00:12:39] Designer Peter: Yeah. Every time somebody sees your billboard as they're driving past, , past it on the motorway.

[00:12:43] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:12:44] Dr Dani: And this is where sometimes I get a little bit cross when we talk about CX or customer experience or people experience is that we tend to think it's these big things. And oftentimes [00:13:00] What really the impressions that are left behind for people are the little things. 

[00:13:06] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:13:08] Dr Dani: Think about something like a bank.

[00:13:11] Dr Dani: All banks generally do the same thing. I know they all have supposedly different value propositions, but really, , you hold my money and keep it safe. That's like what I expect from you. , lend money, , so I can buy my house. You lend money so I can whatever. , and then you hold on to the other money, give me a safe place to put it.

[00:13:35] Dr Dani: But the real differentiators come down to those micro moments, right? , when I walk into a branch, what is the experience from the staff? Do I feel like when I walk in, people know me? What's the experience when I have to talk to somebody? Am I on hold for eight hours trying to get my question answered?

[00:13:53] Designer Peter: Yeah, nice. You've made me think of something else I consider, when I'm thinking about, experience or [00:14:00] the definition of our working compasses is, , all of our sentences, all of our sentences. All of our senses. All 

[00:14:07] Dr Dani: of your senses. 

[00:14:09] Designer Peter: All of our senses. So you walk into that bank branch, or maybe more viscerally, or you walk into a restaurant, and a well designed experience, I think, takes into account.

[00:14:24] Designer Peter: All of your senses and maybe, , pays attention to the one, , the senses that are most important in that moment. So let's say you walk into a branch, a bank branch. What it smells like might be important, but maybe not quite as important as what a restaurant smells like when you first walk into that.

[00:14:42] Designer Peter: Likewise, walking into a bank branch, I think seeing, Yeah, your sense of sight, your visual, what you see is probably just as important as a restaurant. But yeah, these are the, are five, , senses. I think we should be thinking about all of them when we're [00:15:00] considering an experience.

[00:15:03] Dr Dani: Yeah. If I walk into a restaurant, I want to smell food. It would be really weird if you walk into a restaurant and you're just hit with Very flowery perfume smell 

[00:15:14] Dr Dani: We tend to confuse standards of expectation with good experiences.

[00:15:22] Dr Dani: What I mean by that is, if I walk into a restaurant. I want to see it clean. It needs to smell of food, but it needs to be a good smell of food, right? I 

[00:15:32] Designer Peter: don't I 

[00:15:32] Dr Dani: don't want to walk in and see or smell rotting food or burning food And those are those contribute to experiences But those are also standards you expect your restaurants to be clean.

[00:15:45] Dr Dani: You expect your banks to be safe You expect if you have an online store, I expect to be able to shop on it and you keep my credit card information safe. What happens is often we take the standard of [00:16:00] expectation and go, Oh, we're going to build an experience around that.

[00:16:04] Dr Dani: That's not what an experience is. That's just meeting customer expectations. That contributes to the experience because if the standard that I'm expecting is I want to buy this product online, you've told me I can buy it online, but when I go to buy it online, it's not online, or you've told me that everything I see online, I could walk into a store and buy, and I walk into a store and it's not there.

[00:16:27] Dr Dani: That's a standard of expectation, but when it's not met, it creates a poor experience. But that's not, those aren't the, what's going to win it. Like you have to do the standards, right? 

[00:16:40] Designer Peter: , yeah. Thank you. You, , I think I've got different words to describe this same thing.

[00:16:46] Designer Peter: Something that agitates me, stroke annoys me, stroke is always something that catches my attention to have a conversation about. Is this When the Royal We again, we talk about experience, it's almost [00:17:00] unspoken that this word means it's something that in your words exceeds expectations or is exceptional or is, is memorable because it is unique and special.

[00:17:14] Designer Peter: Let's see, let's use the restaurant example. It means that every mule, you get your birthday cake in it with sparklers, there's something. special about it. Whereas I think, so I think that's an unhelpful kind of definition or view of this word of customer or people or user experience.

[00:17:34] Designer Peter: I think a lot of the time experiences, like you're saying, I think they just need to meet expectations. They need to be almost, , not memorable. They just happen. They just meet expectations. They, help us achieve , the job we're trying to do, trying to accomplish, , and let us get on with our lives.

[00:17:54] Designer Peter: And the counter to that, the opposite, what that means is they can't be bad. They just need to meet a [00:18:00] minimum kind of standard of expectation. Yeah, maybe you can help me articulate this better, but on the one hand, experiences do not need to be. memorable, exceptional, some organizations talk about, signature moments or, don't all, they don't and can't all be like that.

[00:18:18] Designer Peter: But on the other hand, they, shouldn't be, can't be, I'll use the word, I'll use the word bad, as in they don't meet expectations or there's something in it that makes it memorable, but for the wrong reasons. I think that's. I know, see, there's a, it's a strange, I don't know, there's a bit of a tension there, and generally we just need to make things okay, and then we can spend the time and effort that we've got spare after we've fixed everything, just making a few things that, find out what the important, micro experiences are within a bigger experience, and focus our attention on making those, , exceptional and memorable for the right reasons.[00:19:00] 

[00:19:01] Dr Dani: Yeah. So where a lot of, when we talk about CX or, custom experience or people experience or whatever experience you talk about, where we tend to go wrong is the focus ends up being on the exceptional. What are we going to do? That is exceptional without going, actually, are we meeting the standard expectations?

[00:19:22] Dr Dani: Yeah. 

[00:19:22] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:19:23] Dr Dani: The standard expectations gets you into the game. And until you've done that, you're not in the game. This idea of experience tends to be frustrating is that if the foundation isn't good, anything you add to that is just gonna, it's not going to give you the results you want because found fundamentally.

[00:19:44] Dr Dani: It's not delivering what people are expecting.

[00:19:46] Designer Peter: Yeah. Can we think of a bit of an example or just use a story? So maybe the going on holiday story, you might have a great sign up experience. You [00:20:00] might have a really great check in experience, but if your flight doesn't actually take off or it doesn't take off on time and you miss your next flight, then it doesn't really matter about the check in experience.

[00:20:11] Dr Dani: Or your flight has to return because something's wrong with the plane, which is the right thing to do, but the expectation when you buy a flight is that, the planes are serviced and kept, kept up to date so that they can fly safe. You have all of these expectations and until you're meeting those, then it doesn't matter how great the booking processes, if all of your flights are delayed or canceled.

[00:20:38] Dr Dani: What's the point?

[00:20:41] Dr Dani: We're putting a little checklist together. The first element of creating a good experience is really understanding what are the standard expectations people have of this and that this could be a retail experience. It could be, , you're a bank, whatever it is, whatever your niche that you're operating in [00:21:00] is, 

[00:21:00] Dr Dani: Are the standard expectations that people have,

[00:21:04] Dr Dani: then being honest, are we meeting those standard expectations? If the answer is no, and I'm willing to bet probably 95 percent of the time it's going to be a no. Well, let's get that and then build. So that's step number one. Now, this is not to dismiss. There are moments and we talk about this concept of moments that matter and they do exist.

[00:21:30] Dr Dani: Once you have your foundation, right, the next thing is to understand what are those moments that actually matter to customers and how can we be sure that we're showing up for customers in those moments that matter. 

[00:21:44] Dr Dani: for every industry, there's moments that matter

[00:21:47] Dr Dani: If you're a bank, the moments that matter are going to be things like when a customer is going through hardship or when a customer, , is facing a big life event, , that could be something like buying a new house[00:22:00] , , expanding your family.

[00:22:03] Dr Dani: So once you've got the foundation built where you're meeting the standards of expectations, the next thing is to understand what are the moments that matter to customers and how do we elevate that.

[00:22:14] Designer Peter: What are the expectations? What are the moments that matter? I suppose woven or inherently part of both of those are, what is , the customer or, the team member? person we're designing for, what are they actually trying to do? What's the thing they are trying to accomplish, that they're using our product, service, etc.

[00:22:35] Designer Peter: for? Do you think that's a, is that kind of woven into those two things or is it a separate thing? 

[00:22:42] Dr Dani: No, that's essential to understanding experience, right? If you don't understand what your customers are trying to do, then what's it for? And this is another area where we go wrong when we're trying to create experiences, we don't understand what it is our customers want to do.

[00:22:58] Designer Peter: And following a theme, maybe [00:23:00] we do understand it, at a quite high level, but we don't under, we often, , we don't spend the time and effort, to understand at the the detailed level, so for example, , we may understand that customers want to buy.

[00:23:15] Designer Peter: So , if we're a bank, will understand customers want to take out a home loan, take a mortgage. But we may not understand until we get down to the level of detail that when they are, signing on by actually sitting down and signing that mortgage , in that moment, that what they want to do is, yes, borrow money, but take out a mortgage with a sense of, trust, that gives them peace of mind that they're Doing the right thing.

[00:23:42] Designer Peter: So in my mind, that's where the kind of the detail, the level of detail we're focusing on kind of changes, depending on the level of experience we're thinking about and designing, but then ultimately everything comes down to those small details. So, for example, if I'm [00:24:00] designing experience where customers are signing up to borrow hundreds of thousands and more dollars to buy a house, then You know, I would be thinking about what, what's the room like they're sitting in, what's the seating arrangement, what sort of pen, are they using, am I just giving them, am I expecting the bank, teller to take out their chewed kind of ballpoint pen and hand it over to the customer, or am I going to actually give that bank teller a special pen that they only get out when customers are paying for it?

[00:24:32] Designer Peter: Signing up for a mortgage and maybe it's a nice fountain pen or, a nice rollerball. Oh, well, guess what customer you get to keep that, it's, that level of detail. I remember when I started, I got a lot, I was there, Danny, I don't know if you could tell I was sitting down signing, signing a mortgage with that pen in that room.

[00:24:48] Designer Peter: I got, I got lost. Why did I start telling that story? 

[00:24:54] Dr Dani: It's a good story to tell, because there's lots of, there's lots of experiences [00:25:00] that have led to that moment where you're sitting down. Signing those documents, which feels, and it's a big moment. You're literally signing up for hundreds of thousands of dollars that you're committing to pay back.

[00:25:14] Dr Dani: And you can make that, you can make that moment feel like it's a moment of anxiety for people. It's a moment of excitement, but you could really make that moment feel special because it's also. Look, you've saved up to buy a house and you've done all the right things to get to the point. Yeah. , to be able to get a mortgage.

[00:25:32] Dr Dani: Like those are big accomplishments in life and we could create, we can make really memorable moments out of that. And what that does is so, okay, you've got somebody that's already committed and you've created this really special moment. Now you feel, now that customer feels like, wow, this bank is really caring about where I am, in my life.

[00:25:56] Dr Dani: What that means now, though, is what happens [00:26:00] when, when interest rates change and they're looking to maybe refinance or they're looking to buy a second place or their friends are starting to buy houses. What is, how does that experience translate to other experiences?

[00:26:12] Designer Peter: I was going to ask you actually what, when you have a great experience, what's one of the things that you do?

[00:26:16] Dr Dani: Well, when I have a really great experience, I tell people about it. But here's the thing, when I have a crap experience, guess what? 

[00:26:25] Designer Peter: Yeah, you tell even more people about it.

[00:26:26] Designer Peter: I'm also telling people. 

[00:26:26] Dr Dani: Yeah, 

[00:26:28] Designer Peter: yeah, yeah, nice. Nice. So, whether you were given the, lovely, aluminium turned, ballpoint pen, or whether you were given, the half chewed, blunt, pencil with the snapping lead, you're going to tell people about it.

[00:26:41] Dr Dani: There are some brands that I am very, very loyal to because of the way they showed up in the moments that matter. I often tell the story about why I'm such a diehard Apple fan. I don't know if I've told that story before. It started in primary school for me when they came out with their, , think different [00:27:00] campaign.

[00:27:00] Designer Peter: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:27:01] Dr Dani: I was a weird kid. 

[00:27:03] Designer Peter: Uh huh. 

[00:27:05] Dr Dani: I remember seeing those commercials and going, , but that is an experience in itself. Right? So you think about, okay, you want to create a great crack ad campaign. Really understanding who, and this is the thing that people don't get, , Apple understands who their customers are, , they really understand who their customers are, and they're the weird ones.

[00:27:31] Dr Dani: And they understood that from day one. So really creating things that speak to them, that creates an experience.

[00:27:41] Designer Peter: Well, that's a, that's a good, that's a great example, actually, of, you don't even need to be a direct customer, or even a user of, , a company or an organization to actually have an experience of that, , of that organization or of that brand. Yeah, good story. 

[00:27:59] Designer Peter: [00:28:00] Okay, where are we at? So we've done our word definition, our etymology. Latin, expiry, to try, , and we've talked about standards and expectations and customer needs or jobs they're trying to accomplish. What else might be in our checklist of, we talked about senses, , feelings.

[00:28:22] Designer Peter: It feels like a good list. It's definitely. 

[00:28:24] Dr Dani: The micro macro. 

[00:28:26] Designer Peter: Micro macro, yeah, different levels, different spans of time and different levels of detail to, consider and pay attention to. There, there is something else, my brain considers or almost defaults to when we talk about, think about experience and that's the, , the peak end rule.

[00:28:43] Designer Peter: Which I know you know about, and I might have talked about it in other episodes, but maybe somebody's listening for the first time. So shall I talk a little bit about the peak end rule? 

[00:28:53] Dr Dani: Yes, please. We can't talk about experience without talking about 

[00:28:57] Designer Peter: it. Awesome. That's great to hear. Yeah. [00:29:00] So, , peak end rule.

[00:29:04] Designer Peter: There's a , psychological, a heuristic, backed up by, by research, tell a story of the research in a second. And what the peak end rule says is that our, well, I think, I think it says a couple of things, but I could be conflating some pieces of research or science.

[00:29:21] Designer Peter: Well, the first thing is that what we describe as experience is actually, , by definition, our memory of something that's happened. We're not a philosophy podcast, so that's probably where I'll leave that one. But it just, it's just useful to, to always remember that it's literally a memory in any experience we have.

[00:29:41] Designer Peter: The peak end rule, the research showed that our memory of, , what's occurred, our experience is dependent mainly on time. Two, moments during that experience. The first one, , is the peak, moment during that experience. , it, so peak is a kind [00:30:00] of elevation or a high word, but it could also be the trough.

[00:30:03] Designer Peter: So it's like the peak or the trough, of that, , experience. And then the second thing is how it ends. And the, first time I heard about peak end role, the research that was described to me was, endoscopy, , experiences. So the research was done by some psychologists and they, interviewed people who had experienced endoscopy and they asked them to describe the experience and I think rate their surgeons as well.

[00:30:30] Designer Peter: And they did this, they discovered that the surgeons who are rated the highest, , for a good experience of endoscopy procedures, Turned out that they were, the most careful, , not to have any sudden, , uncomfortable sensations, , for the patient during the procedure. And also, , they were also the most careful about, how can I put this delicately, how the procedure ended.

[00:30:55] Designer Peter: I actually have personal experience of, endoscopy.

[00:30:58] Designer Peter: My experience was, [00:31:00] very, you can tell , I'm speaking positively already, but my positive memories of my, , endoscopy, , I think the, during the procedure, my kind of peak moment was, just as they began and the sedatives really kicked in. And then afterwards, the, thing that I remember the most is, , having a nice conversation with the very jolly pleasant surgeon who told me how it had all gone, eating what I remember to be the best, the most amazing, tastiest cheese and egg sandwich I had ever tasted in my life.

[00:31:35] Designer Peter: So if anyone ever asked me to, who to go for, I would send them his way. So that's peak end rule. So translated from endoscopy experiences and cheese and egg sandwiches to, let's say, a service industry, there's a great example. I believe it's Four Seasons Hotel chain used peak end rule for a really neat example of the difference between [00:32:00] That one word can make.

[00:32:01] Designer Peter: So let's say you're staying at a Four Seasons hotel and you call up, for room service. Maybe you've seen an egg and cheese sandwich on the menu and you're like, want to reminisce about your endoscopy experience. You phone up for room service. And, you order your, order your sandwich, and any other hotel chain, they would probably say something like, so egg and cheese sandwich, Ms.

[00:32:24] Designer Peter: Chesson. Is there anything else, , I can help you with today? And to which you would say, what would you say if, no, yeah, or four seasons. , so no, thank you. I'm good. Nope. But four season staff are trained to say, have I helped you with everything that I can, right now? Okay. Yes. Yes. Okay. So they've done, , research into customer, satisfaction around how do people feel finishing on the no versus finishing on the yes and surprise.

[00:32:56] Designer Peter: People feel a lot better about the experience by finishing [00:33:00] with a positive word. They are seeing it. , They're saying yes instead of no, but there's a measurable difference in people's experience and their satisfaction, their willingness to recommend this hotel chain based on that simple interaction and that simple switch of word from yes to no.

[00:33:16] Dr Dani: I often think that the peak end rule is a very missed thing when it comes to creating experience because we tend to focus on the beginning of things, right? And the thing is, the beginning of everything is exciting. Well, not everything. Beginning of most things is very exciting. There's the anticipation of what's to come.

[00:33:38] Dr Dani: There's the, you're starting something new. There's all of this good energy around beginning. Middle, and I often call it the mucky middle, because middle is where things get messy. Things get hard. If you think about, , anything from buying a house is a great example. The middle is very messy [00:34:00] because it's a lot of freaking paperwork.

[00:34:02] Designer Peter: And, , or, sorry to, or let's say you are ordering room service, then, what can you, what would you like today? Oh, sorry, we don't have that. Or would you like that , on rye, on white, on wholemeal, you're like, Oh God, I just want a sandwich. Sorry to interrupt because you're right.

[00:34:16] Designer Peter: And actually you're, I'll keep going. I guess this is great. Really good. 

[00:34:22] Dr Dani: So you've got the messy middle, and then the end gets ignored because it's just seen as, oh, we're just going to wrap things up. And things like, paying the bill at the end of a great restaurant experience, what is the experience for customers?

[00:34:40] Dr Dani: They've come in, they've had this fantastic meal, and now they're leaving. What is that last impression they're going to walk away with? 

[00:34:48] Designer Peter: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:34:49] Dr Dani: Another example, and this is like a very big pet peeve of mine, is The off boarding experience for employees 

[00:34:56] Designer Peter: had 

[00:34:58] Dr Dani: a fantastic career. [00:35:00] You've done all these great things.

[00:35:02] Dr Dani: You've had a good impression and then you go to leave and it's this very clunky. All right. See, did you get your badge turned in? It's this very. It, , or sometimes, and we see this when there's restructuring and stuff where you're treated really badly, 

[00:35:21] Dr Dani: This trusted performing employee is now escorted out like, 

[00:35:25] Designer Peter: you 

[00:35:26] Dr Dani: know, they're going to rob 

[00:35:27] Designer Peter: us.

[00:35:28] Designer Peter: All this time I've just been on a number, everything else was just an illusion. 

[00:35:33] Dr Dani: Exactly. 

[00:35:34] Designer Peter: Yeah. I imagine that's what it feels like anyways.

[00:35:38] Dr Dani: There are these opportunities. And then what happens? That person leaves. Yeah. And that's the last thing they remember. So what happens when somebody asks, Oh, you used to work there.

[00:35:48] Dr Dani: I'm applying for a job there. What was it like? 

[00:35:50] Designer Peter: What was your experience? Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:35:53] Dr Dani: The first thing that's going to come to your mind is, well, it was great, but they were terrible when I left. 

[00:35:59] Designer Peter: [00:36:00] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:36:01] Dr Dani: Right. 

[00:36:04] Designer Peter: Always finish on a high. There's a complete sideline but, , having left a few, not that many, but a few organizations, I always I've always, Taking a moment to, I design my own leaving experience and like that, as in like leaving the building and like why I choosing to do something that's memorable and positive for me so that I can have ownership of that and anyway, , come back on track.

[00:36:30] Designer Peter: Thank you, that was really, I loved what you just described, the messy middle, or what did you call it? Was it the messy middle? Yep. But in part and in particular the beginning of something, because I think you're right, we do tend to, if we don't think about it, we don't take a step back and pause and if we are not paying attention to the peak end rule, we will overinvest in the beginning of something.

[00:36:53] Designer Peter: 'cause , we've forgotten about or don't understand, and, , yeah, it's almost, I think, what the peak end rule [00:37:00] tells us, I've never really thought about it before. What it's telling us something, what's it not telling us, or what's the opposite of that? And the opposite is, the beginning is not especially important or memorable, but don't make it the trough, don't make it really bad, because it's going to be the most memorable bad part, but you don't need to make it stupendous.

[00:37:19] Designer Peter: Again, it comes back to, 

[00:37:22] Dr Dani: the beginning needs to mean The basic standards,

[00:37:28] Dr Dani: but generally with most things, beginnings are an exciting time to be. We don't have to put a lot of effort into that, but I think where it counts is that middle point and the end. 

[00:37:41] Designer Peter: You got me thinking, , I'll do some reading around it. I wonder if the beginning is not as memorable because we are either excited or anticipating something.

[00:37:50] Designer Peter: I used to work in a call center for several years and we were trained to remember and realize that the first few words you say to [00:38:00] something on a phone call either are indiscernible or completely memorable. So. almost come up with, , something that doesn't need to be remembered. So don't, don't, um, don't tell somebody your name is one of the first few words that you, uh, you say, , say something else and then tell them who you are.

[00:38:19] Designer Peter: Okay. Thanks for letting me talk about peak end rule. 

[00:38:21] Dr Dani: Let's do a recap. We talked about first step is understanding what are the. the standard expectations that you have to meet. Then it was understanding the moments that matter. Then we talked about peak and roll.

[00:38:39] Dr Dani: What else? 

[00:38:41] Designer Peter: Maybe something else about an experience, and it has been implicit in probably everything we've talked about, but as an organization, delivering an experience to somebody or people or, , it will keep it to human beings. You only have control [00:39:00] of part of that. I was going to say half of that. Maybe it's half of that.

[00:39:05] Designer Peter: Let's keep it simple and say half. And that half is what you are doing. The other half is completely and utterly out of your control because the experience that somebody has, , of your product or service or brand or anything is just as dependent on everything else that has happened. And I go to a little bit extremes on this, but every single thing that has happened in that person's life up to that moment that they're experiencing your product or service actually has an influence to a lesser or greater degree on the experience they're having of your product and service.

[00:39:38] Designer Peter: It's almost like two kind of arrows coming together or, the pointy end of a, of a double diamond, since we're design thinkers and we know about double diamonds, but the pointy end is going from left to right of a double diamond, that, that dot, if you like, in the middle of the, the double diamond, where one ends and one begins, That could be the moment of experience and both the [00:40:00] organization's kind of life up to that point and the person's life up to that point meet there.

[00:40:04] Designer Peter: And then as it expands out again on the other side of the diamond, that's what's happening to both the person and the organization after they've had that experience. Dani's pulling some good faces while she's listening to this. So I'm looking forward to what she says. 

[00:40:20] Dr Dani: Well, As a design thinker and a researcher, you mentioned it's 50 percent and then 50%, depending , on the person, but the more that we can understand our customers, the more we can increase.

[00:40:41] Dr Dani: How much of the experience you control. Nice. One of my jobs is, I, I teach first year doctoral students. Research statistics. 

[00:40:51] Designer Peter: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:40:53] Dr Dani: and I have spent a lot of time, well, one, I have firsthand experience of what it's like to be a first year doctoral [00:41:00] student. Mm-Hmm. . Everything I've designed in how I've structured that course and how the materials that I present, the examples that I present, it comes from an understanding of what it's like to be at that point in your doctoral journey and the anxieties you have, the fears you have, the imposter syndrome you're challenged with, really understanding those things.

[00:41:27] Dr Dani: One of the things that when I do those sessions, there's nothing, there's no numbers. There's no formulas. Because that's the thing that scares people away from statistics, but that's not what I need you to under learn the first year. The first year I need you to learn the foundations concepts. These are all words, , about statistics that later on in your journey.

[00:41:50] Dr Dani: You can learn those things, but if you don't understand the fundamentals of what a P value is or what R is, then, , so if I present you with formulas on day one, I know you're not going to get it [00:42:00] because I was sitting in that chair and formulas were presented to me and I was like, what the hell?

[00:42:04] Dr Dani: This is not for me. 

[00:42:06] Designer Peter: Yeah, yeah, 

[00:42:08] Dr Dani: I share that. As a concrete example to say that the more we look, so, because I have that understanding of who shows up to those sessions, I've been able to create, it still means that there are some students that go through that and still, , have a bad experience or still walk away going statistics is not for me.

[00:42:29] Designer Peter: I 

[00:42:29] Dr Dani: can't control that, but it just means that I have more control because I've taken, and I don't want to say control, cause I'm not controlling the students, but I have. I have control over the experience I can create for them because I understand them.

[00:42:50] Designer Peter: Yeah, nice. You've helped, , open my mind to maybe 50 percent is the starting point. Actually, maybe,, for some organizations, 50 percent could be an aspiration, couldn't [00:43:00] it, to have control, but yes, , understanding and acknowledging what this person might have been through before they arrive, , at your store, on your website, et cetera, et cetera, , is vital.

[00:43:14] Dr Dani: Well, yeah, because you can't create something for somebody you don't understand. 

[00:43:19] Designer Peter: Nice. 

[00:43:20] Dr Dani: But that works on a spectrum, 

[00:43:21] Dr Dani: there will be some scenarios where You just need to know your customers a little bit because that'll get you going. But then once you get going, you need to learn about your customers more because that's going to take you to the next step. Yeah. 

[00:43:35] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:43:35] Dr Dani: This is why I talk about this idea of customer research and understanding your customers.

[00:43:40] Dr Dani: It's not a point in time thing. It's an evolution. It needs to continuously happen. 

[00:43:46] Designer Peter: Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like the idea of getting to them just enough to begin with and then continuing to get to them better and better so that you can meet their needs better and better. I love it. 

[00:43:59] Dr Dani: [00:44:00] One thing we have to accept.

[00:44:02] Dr Dani: Is you cannot know everything about everything, so, and that translates to customers. You could research customers for the rest of your life and still not understand them fully. So it's about knowing how much do I need to know to get started? And then how much do I need to know to get to the next level?

[00:44:20] Dr Dani: And then how much do I need to know to get to the next level? 

[00:44:22] Designer Peter: Nice. Nice. I like it. That feels like we're segwaying into, well, we covered off, , why is it, well, hopefully people have picked up on why this is important. , if you want to be a successful organization of any kind, whether you're a, , a business selling products or a, , an education provider or health service or a not for profit, any kind, you need to understand who you're trying to help and what they need.

[00:44:51] Designer Peter: And, , yeah, start to meet those needs by. Creating experiences that help them and that work for them, etc. Yeah,

[00:44:59] Dr Dani: [00:45:00] There used to be that saying, , if you build it, they will come. That's no longer true. 

[00:45:04] Designer Peter: No. 

[00:45:05] Dr Dani: What you have to do is you've got to create the experience that appeals to them and then they will show up.

[00:45:10] Designer Peter: And they'll start telling other people. , cool. What else have we, , what else have we not covered that's important?

[00:45:17] Dr Dani: We did the how and the why kind of intermingled on this, but just to recap, if you want to attract and retain customers and grow customers, experience is important. I know we've talked a lot on this today about customer, but this also applies to employees.

[00:45:35] Dr Dani: Yeah. 

[00:45:36] Designer Peter: Definitely. Yeah. 

[00:45:37] Dr Dani: Great for your employees. Whether you're working with employees or customers, the principles of experience, it's consistent, because at the end of the day, you're trying to attract and retain customers. You're trying to attract and retain employees, those two things stay constant.

[00:45:53] Designer Peter: Yes. And, the experience that your people have, the employee experience has a [00:46:00] direct. A direct and unbreakable connection with your customers experience, whether that person is a customer facing person, whether they are, writing lines of code or anything in your organization that has a direct relationship between the two things.

[00:46:16] Dr Dani: And what I always say is if you want a good customer experience, you've got to have a great employee experience. 

[00:46:21] Designer Peter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. 

[00:46:25] Dr Dani: Should we talk about which design thinker capabilities most? Oh, 

[00:46:30] Designer Peter: yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do that. , I'd almost forgotten that most important part.

[00:46:35] Designer Peter: Well, uh, definitely empathetic exploration. 

[00:46:39] Dr Dani: Absolutely empathetic. I don't think you can have experience, Design without emphatic exploration. , unless you're designing for yourself, but in that case, you still probably need to do , some exploration still. 

[00:46:54] Designer Peter: Definitely. 

[00:46:55] Dr Dani: And, , being true to the root, to the history of the [00:47:00] word experience, I think curious experimentation.

[00:47:05] Designer Peter: Oh, absolutely. You can't, it's unlikely that whatever experience you create for somebody in the first place is going to be absolutely, , the right thing straight away. So having that iterative experimental capability is essential. , The old favorite situation, optimizing, I think we have to believe that we can make somebody's life better in some way.

[00:47:33] Designer Peter: Whether that, , their experience of your product or your service or whatever else you're creating, or a combination of two things, the product and the service together, I mean, they're all important, aren't they? But I'm going to touch on collective collaboration, because I think, it takes, , let's take, let's go back to the restaurant example, and it's not just about the chef, is it?

[00:47:57] Designer Peter: Your experience of a restaurant is about so much, [00:48:00] so many more people than just what the chef is creating. So you need to, any organization, we need to collaborate with all of our colleagues in their different fields of expertise to design and orchestrate an experience for, , for our customers, our team members.

[00:48:15] Dr Dani: Nice.

[00:48:16] Dr Dani: Yep. And that translates to other contexts as well. Like employee experience isn't really driven by the CEO. I mean, it is, but it's not solely driven by the CEO. It's about the peers, the manager, the people who are up to you. All of these things play a role. So I think to collaborate. And like you said, , all of these capabilities are relevant and important and we, could go through all of them and talk about ways that they're tying in.

[00:48:41] Dr Dani: But I think the point of this is what's most important here just to keep it.

[00:48:45] Designer Peter: Yeah, nice. 

[00:48:47] Dr Dani: What is your takeaway? 

 My takeaway, definitely the ha ha moment around peak end rule and, , what it's not saying, it's just as important as what it is saying.

[00:48:59] Designer Peter: So, that, [00:49:00] that beginning stage,, idea that I talked about earlier. So thank you for that. That's what I'm going to take away. How about you? 

[00:49:07] Dr Dani: , actually mine is also peak end rule, 

[00:49:08] Designer Peter: um, 

[00:49:11] Dr Dani: which was your original. You raised that. So thank you. Specifically around peak and rule, I think it's something, and maybe we do an episode on peak and rule at one point, I think it's something that we really easily forget.

[00:49:27] Designer Peter: Yeah. 

[00:49:28] Dr Dani: , and just being more deliberate about thinking about how can we end things on a higher note. 

[00:49:34] Designer Peter: People on a high. 

[00:49:36] Dr Dani: Yeah.

[00:49:36] Designer Peter: Nice, Dani. That's a nice question. Nice positive question to end on have you talked about everything you want to talk about today? Have you enjoyed your, , your podcast experience today?

[00:49:47] Dr Dani: Oh, nice.

[00:49:48] Dr Dani: I think the first question, because the If you ask me, have I enjoyed my podcast experience? What if I say no? It's terrible. 

[00:49:55] Designer Peter: You could say no to the other question as well, couldn't you? It's just, uh, I realized as the [00:50:00] words were coming out of my mouth, I'm playing a bit of a risky game there. 

 Yes, I have talked about everything I wanted to talk about today.

[00:50:08] Dr Dani: Have you talked about everything you wanted to talk about? 

[00:50:11] Designer Peter: Yes, I have, Dani, , and I hope our listeners have enjoyed, , our conversation. I'm looking forward to the next one. 

[00:50:18] Dr Dani: Thanks for listening. Thanks Pete. Thanks, 

[00:50:21] Designer Peter: Dani. See you next time. 

[00:50:23] Dr Dani: Bye. 

[00:50:24] Designer Peter: Bye.